Five friendship functions and the entrepreneur’s journey | Heal and Transform Podcast with Cam Aggs

by | Feb 7, 2020 | Podcast

Show notes

On this episode of the Heal and Transform Podcast, Andrew speaks with Cam Aggs, clinical psychologist and mindfulness expert. Cam will share with us his journey of transitioning from 1:1 therapist to doing more leveraged business including group therapy and online learning programs. He’ll also talk about his 5 Friendship Functions and why they’re so important for you and your clients.

Find out more from Cam:

Music by David Cutter Music

Episode transcript

Andrew Ramsden 0:27
And here we are. Can everyone coaches, therapists and healers, and everyone else who’s joined us today, on today’s show, having a chat with Cameron AGS, who is a good mate of mine, but he’s also a clinical psychologist and mindfulness expert. And today we’re going to talk about his transition from more one on one clinical work to mixing in some more leverage business models, so group training, group coaching, group therapy, and online training, and we’re going to talk about five friendship functions. So what the heck does that all that Las cambered they’ll be on the sold us out. So without further ado, curious now, Mr. Cameron. Mr. Cameron x, how are you?

Cam Aggs 1:14
Good, Andrew, how are you doing?

Andrew Ramsden 1:16
really well. Thank you so much for joining me tonight. We’ve been trying to make this happen for a while, for different reasons. It hasn’t sort of going through. But I’ve been really looking forward to having this chat because we’ve been working together for that 48 hour work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we’ve designed and run programs together with deliver training together. We’ve had like, not philosophical and spiritual conversations over a bottle of wine together about the meaning of life and everything else within it. And I’ve just been so impressed by your breadth of knowledge, and the depth of your insights and wisdom and also seeing you apply that to yourself through the ups and downs of the journey. That is Essentially entrepreneurship, which is not an easy thing. So, such an honor to be able to finally do this and have this chat and share your wisdom with the world.

Cam Aggs 2:11
Thank you very much. Yeah.

Andrew Ramsden 2:14
Now you’ve been both a clinical psychologist focusing on one on one work one on one sessions, but also, you’ve been transitioning into more leveraged approaches. So the word therapy, retraining, online training, etc. What’s that journey been like for you? What are the benefits of those different ways of operating in business? And what are the drawbacks?

Cam Aggs 2:38
Well, I think some of the advantages is, is in doing the group work, which I do in my private practice, for example, it’s been a catalyst to refine what it is that I do in my individual work. There’s this double lap of IP, and a refining really of the IP folder group where I incorporate slides and worksheets and so on and so forth. So it makes me better at my bread and butter kind of stuff. And the same is true of the corporate training as well. I really noticed that from going from teaching clinicians about mindfulness through to doing a kind of like a pithy one hour presentation at PwC, which is a global accounting firm. And that’s actually where, you know, you and I started our work together and refining this a theory or concept of mindfulness into a kind of a sequence, you know, we called the five step sequence that could provide some degree of how to for people, when they’re not naturally inclined towards self reflection, contemplative practice, you know, when they’re more goal oriented, and focused individuals how to really break that stuff down. And so for me creatively, that’s been a real part of the joy is is to be able to work Shop these resources, if a corporate client for group sessions and then import that back into my bread and butter.

Andrew Ramsden 4:13
Yeah, it’s been a really fun journey to be a part of and to watch you refine that work as we went, I know you have to keep some value to the five step sequence. And I’ve seen that evolved now because you talk about more and more the the four different aspects of mindfulness, and less about the five step sequence. We always talked about this idea that we would get it into quiet, our rigid step by step process, because at the time we were working with technical believers and engineers, in particular, who are very auditory digital learners, they love those processes and that structure that you always said at the time, don’t apply it in a strict order every time. So once you start to really become a master of the content, you mix and match different tools. I think that’s where our scene is evolved as it’s become much more this lovely Blender here the different aspects of it and then you get to like a master shift you get to mix and match the ingredients for your situation and Facebook I

Cam Aggs 5:14
mean that that really is very true isn’t it and and it’s through the doing all of the the material for clients, you know, whether their corporate clients or or individuals that we actually the the model kind of is, is given birth, it’s learning about what it is that we do through actually doing it and struggling to refine it struggling to bring it into the world in a in a pithy and meaningful way. And as you just referenced, you know, we’ve got the four skills of mindfulness for which the five steps, the five friendship functions is one of those skills and which is basically about being a friend to yourself and treating yourself in Jordan Peterson’s words like you’re someone to whom you have an obligation to help. And I’ve certainly seen my my thinking of that evolve over time. And yet this basic premise of treating ourselves like a friend of someone to whom we have this obligation to help is such a crucial thing for all of us, particularly high performers and particularly for entrepreneurs as well because being an entrepreneur is a is kind of it’s it’s a difficult thing to do. And and we certainly need some emotionally focused coping skills to to assist us in the long journey towards our goals.

Andrew Ramsden 6:44
Isn’t that the truth? I can very much relate to that. It’s not an easy journey as an entrepreneur. Yeah, I’ve just learned so much and taken away so much from working through this IP with you that I’ve been going to apply to myself. My journey, which has been really fantastic. I mean, just so many things there that I want to come back to, which is really great. Like the five friendship functions. I’m just going to take some notes, the emotive emotion show, because I think that’s really cool. And then yeah, how we apply this. So what’s really interesting to me, and this is where I had my mind blown repeatedly over the years, is that, to me, mindfulness was always about a couple of things. I guess it was always about meditation. It was always about being present in the moment, and being grounded and sort of breathing. Yeah, you’ve expanded my understanding of what mindfulness is all about and talking about the five friendship functions being a friend to yourself being I won’t go into detail about what that’s all about. We can talk about that later. I’ll let you lead that discussion. And it’s emotion focused coping so it starts to to move into how you can relate to others, as well as emotional intelligence and how You manage other people’s emotions based? I be aware of that. So if you had to summarize what is mindfulness then?

Cam Aggs 8:11
Yeah, I mean mindfulness from a strictly Buddhist perspective, which is where the term comes is paying attention to your object without forgetting it. So often that will be the breath, for example, and it’s to continue to recollect the breath. If one is being mindful of walking, then one is is constantly mind full of walking.

Cam Aggs 8:38
So it is about resting and placing attention, where one would like without forgetting the object of that two causes notoriously difficult thoughts and self preoccupations, you know, me, me, me, me, me. You know, as as Sam Harris talks about, you know, meditation is about sitting with the most Boring repetitive person in the world, which is yourself when you robbed yourself of any distraction, mindfulness and its psychological application has been kind of broad and from this more strict attentional regulation, practice and definition into a more emotional focus how we attend the quality of that and and Jon Kabat Zinn uses a lovely phrase, affection as attention, non judgmental attention, which is also implied in the Buddhist definition, interestingly, but more deeply applied in psychological context, given the proclivity that we had in our culture towards self judgment, and self criticism. And so, what I would be talking about then in the applications of mindfulness for our well being thing is Empire attentional so how we deploy our attention and what’s most adaptive for us in the present moment, because sometimes thinking and reflecting is the most adaptive and being aware of our thoughts, feelings, and all of those things. But not when we’re in the middle of a conversation with somebody, at which point in time, having our attention more extroverted, and attending to the person or, or, and the ability, then have kind of like a flexibility to go backwards and forwards from the inner world. The outer world, of course, is really what we’re seeking to cultivate in this regard. And to know what’s most adaptive in terms of thinking and, and planning and doing and being kind of attentive to all of that. But when it’s not adaptive to be in our head, thinking about the future or the past moments more adaptive to be in the sensory experience, the simplicity of the present moment. So in many regards, it’s about flexibility of attention. It’s about What’s adaptive to be paying attention to. And the ceiling for this is all said, by the degree to which we can pay attention to our emotional experience as well. Because when we’re emotionally not in a good space, it’s very hard to be mindful in the sense of having a peaceful mind and adaptive mind a flexible mind.

Andrew Ramsden 11:25
Beautiful. Yeah, I can really see how the practices that teach around mindfulness and how to just be present and being in your body and turn on that parasympathetic nervous system so you can relax on the pins, including the emotional intelligence and how you operate, in fact, some reflection on the different aspects of the work, so to speak, that coaches therapists and healers do in all of its gamut across all of the different disciplines. And there’s a whole list of things and so from accountability to skip and knowledge to strategy and planning to mindset and intention to then emotional, physical healing that you did through one on one therapy. And then underpinning all of that is just being in your body. Because if you’re not prison and in your body, none of the rest of it matters, you can’t, can’t effectively do any of the rest of it. It’s this beautiful ability to come back to that big round in prison all throughout the day. All of your interactions that are really welcome. I think that’s what I’ve taken away the most from working with you.

Cam Aggs 12:36
Yeah, you know, I mean, it’s a very good point, the ability to come home and to rest and settle in the body. Because the world is often a very cerebral place to be, and particularly for high performers and and entrepreneurs that are seeking to make a difference and to develop resources and to get sales and all sorts of things. And if we are only out there in the world, And only up here in our mind. I mean, that’s great when we’re winning, right? But when we’re not, and we’re feeling it emotionally, the ability to come home and to sit with that to tolerate those negative emotions and to be able to work them through on the breath with the breath with acceptance and with letting go, skills. And it’s so in that regard, it’s kind of almost like having a medic and internalized infirmary and the inner parent that we can leverage from when we need to. So sometimes we’re out in the world, it’s very intellectual, it’s it’s technological, it’s doing doing doing, and then when stuff is rough, when we’re a bit fatigued, or weary from the journey, then this ability to come harm into ourselves and to ground in our bodies is very important. But of course, that’s a catch 22 because what happens when emotionally and in the body, we’re not feeling so good with Feeling like a failure because we missed that sale on or, or were having a hard time working through what our model is or our value proposition or no one wants to return our phone calls. Well, then the inner environment is a sea of anxiety and maybe we’re angry with ourselves or you’re a bit depressed. And so typically, people try to avoid that spice because that’s a sucky yucky space. And so we tend to extrovert our attention into technology, you know, YouTube or drinking or whatever a person’s addictive thing is. And so to come back into ground is is a is a deceptively difficult thing to do, particularly when we’re stressed or strained.

Andrew Ramsden 14:48
I love that. So the escapism the self medication or the self soothing, we just want to sort of jump out into the Yes. Away from the emotions. Yeah. And the The trap that I find and this is very prominent, very common with coaches, therapists and healers is apply this to themselves and apply it to others is to jump straight into solution mode. So here’s what we’re going to do X, Y and Z. We’re going to get you out of this dark, don’t think negatively, think positively. I’m going to reframe you. Now here’s another way to look at it. We’re going to look at the positive angle here. And we just jumped straight into that. It’s Sol Sol. Yeah, what I find is when that’s being done to me, or I’m doing it to myself, I’m just running away from the problems if it’s been done to me, I’m feeling like, just don’t, you know, don’t tell me what to do right now. I’m angry or I’m frustrated, or sad or whatever, whatever it happens to be. In a beautiful lesson from working with you is that balance of emotion focus coping with solution focus coping. There’s a time and a place to work with emotions first and last space for that hold space for others. With that you can effectively move through solutions

Cam Aggs 16:00
Yeah, I hundred percent agree with that. And I think, you know, I work with lawyers in in different environments and what I find with them is that they’ll often jump to solution, you know, particularly when it comes to capturing a client with a free first session, and that high performing lawyer, we want to impress that client with their expertise and so on and so forth. And sometimes that’s not actually what the client needs. You know, when you think about the kind of person that comes to a lawyer, you’re not in it engaging a lawyer. Typically when you’re winning, you’re coming often in the pit of despair, marriage breakup, a legal issue conveyancing problem, the death of somebody so often very emotional strain. And so, for lawyers, you know, part of what I teach is the ability to toggle back into an emotionally focused approach with the accent. Clients so that they can kind of resonate with the client emotionally, the client can feel understood, and feeling understood can feel sites, and like they’ve been found. And at that moment, when they feel that, well, that’s when we can stop providing advice, solutions and a pathway forward. But without common back into that emotional resonance, the lawyer or the the therapist, or the coach risks, this push and pull interaction with their clients where the client doesn’t feel understood. And then there are these kind of enactments. And why is this client so hard to help, you know, they’re self defeating? And it’s kinda like, well, maybe they don’t feel understood by you. And so it’s investing in that and the ambiguity of that which is emotionally not so easy where we read really hit our paydirt as it relates to the client work that we do.

Andrew Ramsden 18:05
It’s not easy to tell, in your words, what moment is this? Is this emotion focused, solution focused and in so many factors? What’s going on to that other person? What’s going on? What’s going on right now? How How much time do we have left in this conversation, we have a deadline to meet, you know, maybe we do just need to keep things moving. But if they’re not ready to keep moving, you can come a bit of a Cropper. I’ve had conversations with people where they just weren’t ready to sort of keep going and I pushed into solution mode and that that just didn’t work at all. It just wasn’t effective. The conversation breaks down at that point. So how do you how do you not know what moment is is when is the right time to push when is the right time to just hold space?

Cam Aggs 18:50
That’s the next question here. How do we actually do that? And it’s it’s there’s an in the moment element of this country. flexibility of attention. So clients are constantly people are always broadcasting what they want from us and what they need from us, even if they’re not verbalizing it, by simply paying attention and being open and curious by asking ourselves, what moment is this for the client? And they asking me to provide expertise? Are they asking me to commiserate and empathize is this environment now where I need to kind of set a boundary and you know, I’m not always going to be available to you by phone when you call? And when you call, you need to treat my people better? Is this a moment where I need to celebrate the client because you can see that they’re saying, Hey, you know, I had this breakthrough. And at that moment, even though we realized well, and I fall into this trap, right, well, you haven’t quite got it right. Technically, you kind of need to think about it all. Hey, don’t forget to think about like this. That that client isn’t Asking for that right now, this moment isn’t about that it’s about this. And that’s a trial and error again, and certainly, persistently, that’s that’s where I come across is they won’t get it technically correct. I’ll try and add something of value when dead in a celebrate moment. So if they’re in a celebrate with me moment, and I’m there going, Hey, you haven’t quite gotten it yet. Try that for size that’s just not going to land. So it’s good, good good on seed into barren soil. So when we are resonant with the client, we’re always going to be putting seed into into fertile soil and keeping them feeling fertile, even if sometimes the seed itself isn’t the real seed that we’re looking to plant. Now, so that’s the kind of in the moment stuff that call like, what’s the moment So the client, but like you’re articulating, what’s also the moment in the session in the work that we’re doing a cross time? How do we think about those considerations? Also, what’s the, what’s this moment for me, you know, this client, like for me, for example, right? I, I want to feel like I’m helping people. I want to feel like, I’m good at my job. And I love people that have breakthroughs. And so when someone’s not psychologically minded if I don’t feel like they’re having breakthroughs, then all of a sudden, I’m getting tense. Because I’m not achieving what I need to be a good boy in order to feel like my needs are getting met through the client. And that moments, yeah, and so at moments like this, I need to come back and parent myself that hey, cam, you need to slow down buddy. This client is where they’re at in their change journey. Just just slow down. But in order to slow down, I have to parent myself to slow down. And that’s a crucial, that’s a crucial thing.

Andrew Ramsden 22:08
That sounds like a good segue to the five friendship functions show. To me parenting itself is part of that. Well, that’s kind of part of the process. I think in some respects, everything we’ve been talking about working with the clients or working with yourself, can come back to these five friendship functions in terms of the things you need to be aware of, at least in my understanding, but before I butcher it further, maybe I should throw over to you and you can talk us through it. And I’ll pull up a slide about that as well.

Cam Aggs 22:38
Sure, yeah. So this is really paying homage to the literature on attachment theory, and talks to the very basic needs that we have as relational beings initially, and primarily in relationship to our early life caregivers and which we learned what it is to be a psycho. illogical being and how we internalize these conversations into a mode of how we see ourselves and the degree to which we feel good in our own skin. And what we notice is that we’re constantly talking to ourselves. Our thoughts aren’t some thing that’s just happening in the absence of a relationship with ourselves and you know this yourself you’re you’re in a conversation with yourself all the time you’re talking to yourself, you so it’s kind of like your company to yourself. And the question becomes, are you a good company? Or are you not, and when you have good company, and when it yet not, because some people are good company, when all is going well, but not so good company when things aren’t. And so, what I am suggesting is that to be a really good friend to ourselves requires A set of functions that we would expect from any kind of friendship or relationship. So these are the five friendship functions that I think operate interpersonally for flourishing friendships and relationships and we need to cultivate inwardly for ourselves. So it all starts with a sense of acceptance, self acceptance, and it moves there. So just summarize, you know, initially if you if you the listener can think about you know, someone that you’re a good friend, or in a friendship with or romantic partnership or what have you. You need that person to accept you Yeah, for how you are, you’re good at certain things and you’re not great at other stuff. Your Your life is cool over here, but it’s kind of struggles ain’t so great over there. And all of us have this, you know, good and bad mixture and we would really hope That if we’re in an intimate relationship that someone that we’re in a relationship with would accept these parts of us, right, the good and the bad, you know, in marriage for better and for worse in sickness and in health. And we to try to give that same sense of acceptance to the people way with you, when you think of your lover, your boss, your children, your whomever, they’re great at certain things and they are not so good over here and it’s a balance. It’s a balancing act of accepting the whole person. And so equally we’re called upon to accept ourselves. So for me, I’m great with sophisticated psychological concepts. I’m very giving I’m a good dad, but I’ve got shitty time management skills, and I struggle with just getting a really straight as you know, Andrew, a really cool sales funnel around a singular product and then going from There. So I often struggle with disorganization in terms of wanting to be bigger than Ben Hur. Brilliant for being a big picture thinker. Great for being eloquent about really troubling when it comes to just creating a coach and sales funnel. And then that relates to the pain that I experienced in terms of lack of sales growth, not being able to ditch the private practice and go into this magical thing where I’ve got a wonderful ecosystem targeting a discrete market, you know, and so there’s a pain with that, that I need to accept along with the great, you know, elements of that very same psychology. So that’s a really important part both, both philosophically, you know, I accept these things. I know these things about myself. But then in the moment when the pain of that emerges, that’s the key part.

Andrew Ramsden 26:54
I can relate to that. I mean, the entrepreneurs journey, it’s not easy. we’re faced with this calm Students set of challenges to overcome and that constant sense of is this going to work? And am I building my time and resources in the right place? Is this going to actually pay off? Is this how I make the biggest impact? How do you apply the five friendship functions when you’re faced with those sorts of challenges? So say something didn’t go right or sailing go through or you know, it’s not it’s not going the way that you hoped it was going. How do you then turn around and type that quite traumatic event those emotions and use the five friendship functions as an entrepreneur?

Cam Aggs 27:34
Yeah. So the first thing is if I can touch base with self acceptance, self acceptance is the key, both for myself and for my life. So recently, the sale collaboration partnership deal that I was going for, is something that he ended up over shooting and it didn’t work out the way that I wanted it. And what had to accept is that well cam, because you’ve got a busy life in terms of my parenting in terms of my private practice, I only have a smaller window to do these partnership meetings. Sometimes I’ll get it right often I won’t. I accept that about my life. I accept that collaboration partners in the nonprofit space are have their own limitations as well, you know, great here, but limited there. Right? So kind of getting that sense. And then, you know, when we’ve been working together, you’ve seen for me when it’s kind of been overwhelming, and I’ve just had to tolerate and acknowledge that this morning. It’s just not working for me. So I’m just going to have to can the meeting for exam, hold and postpone and give myself that luxury to realize this, this is just not going to work for me today. If I’m not well enough to do it. It’s just not going To be productive and it’s not going to be good for me, emotionally speaking. So then from acceptance comes forgiveness. It’s this sense of, well gee whiz, I guess now reflecting upon it, I could have saved myself this pain if I hardly had asked that question. You know, I can, why aren’t you you’re better at qualifying your leads ahead of time. Why aren’t you more organized? Why don’t you have forms and procedures to do this, you know, which is where Andrew I, I hope that you can kind of help me with some automated stuff it is. And I realize I’ve got to forgive myself because I’m just not great at that kind of thing. And so when I do that, I kind of let myself out of jail because a lot of our strain is yes, unwanted thing happening or wanted thing not happening. But then a lot of it’s the self recrimination and the struggle that we do in response to that. So from acceptance to forgiveness, from forgiveness, to then also a sense of self appreciation. And an appreciation for what’s actually here. So no, Cameron, you can’t have this thing that you’re going for. But guess what your collaboration partners is open to that. So take that and build from there. And that’s a big thing for me, I often overshoot and want to have the big piece of the pie all at once. But this is like, instead of going on, this sucks, I didn’t give me what I want, and then just packing up my tools and going away. It’s like, no, this is the foundation that you have work from there. And so for me that requires and also this limit setting of wanting to pack it in and throwing it away when times get tough, and kind of just setting a limit on that behavior, focusing on the good elements of it, whilst caring for myself around the disappointments and this is how the five friendship function starts to kind of come into a whole thing. That’s not just compassion. It’s not just acceptance. It’s not just looking on the bright side with gratitude, or appreciation. It’s all it’s all of the above in the different environments of what I need. Just like with clients, they will need different things in different environments as well.

Andrew Ramsden 31:25
Beautiful, I love that. I love how all those come together. And I’ve been from that framework as part of a morning routine now that I run it every morning where I just told through to myself in the mirror, say this and Andrew. Andrew, I love you unconditionally. And you know, he’s my commitment for tonight he’s hating us this this setting, as well. So it’s just it’s, it’s, it’s made such a huge difference in my life, to be able to say those things to myself in the morning but also then to provide myself throughout the day. Things stresses and strains strike what you’re doing okay? And

Cam Aggs 32:05
yeah, yeah, you do. Yeah, buddy, you’re doing good. On one hand, and then the party, I hear you on another that sucks, you know. And if we compare both of these things, then we’re feeling good. someone loves us. And we’re getting seen in our pain. It’s just this beautiful mix. And I would say with that and for healers, and anyone in particular, it’s not, you know, I think we can often fall into the trap of thinking it’s just about sending those positive messages or sending those forgiving or conciliatory messages. It’s very important that we realize that while says a sending of messages to ourselves, and a state of mind that underpins that. There’s also a receiving of those messages are receiving which I pair with the breath. So I can say nice came, you’re doing good, I’m proud of you. But then I want to breathe that in and get that someone is proud of me that I’m worthy of being proud of that I can soak the goodness of that. And And so again, it’s this flexibility of attention, a flexibility of emotion where we can be sending these messages in one environment and then receiving them in another.

Andrew Ramsden 33:25
Now speaking of being proud and receiving have to say, I know the journey has been a challenge for us both on the entrepreneurial You know what, you’ve had some really cool wins. So even when it comes to delivering training to hundreds of leaders, all around Australia, face to face online, through scenarios. It’s been it’s been an amazing journey to watch you kick goals and have these wins. And as you know, I have a particular Particular passion around technology and I’ve helped you implement some of the technology behind that. Yeah. So firstly, I just want to say, well done. Thank you very much to watch you kick those goals. And secondly, I just wanted to ask what are some of the best online and digital tools and assets that you’ve developed for your business?

Cam Aggs 34:23
Well, I, I think the last thing that you and I were doing in the online component of the eight week, taming your anxious mind program, and we broke down mindfulness meditation into four phases. And we were so neatly able to, to be and help people realize the four phases of meditation, your dependent, you know, whichever kind of meditation you’re doing this for my reckoning, there’s kind of full phases that one goes through with that and to be able to actually Look at that and to provide clients and participants with an opportunity to navigate towards what they’re actually doing has just been gorgeous. So, as you know, I’m a real stickler for. It’s not just talking about something or delivering something. It’s about delivering it. And then getting people giving an experiential exercise with it, giving some kind of worksheet with it. Multiple presentations of the same thing presented over time, if from from my perspective is how people cultivate new behaviors experience new levels of realization. And so that’s where the tech becomes so helpful is in the enabling of that. And you know, you and I have done a series of programs together where we also facilitate that through a snapshot that we provide Bi weekly engagement through email. And, you know, we’re talking now phone app. And I think, for me that really is it, you know, particularly in the four breaths course, and other technologies around establishing mindfulness in the moment, it really is the repetition of the behaviors, interestingly, that leads to the cultivation of insight and capacity. And so for me, it’s this multiple catch points, and delivering those in ways that are pithy and and that’s what I love doing. That’s the really fun stuff. I fine.

Andrew Ramsden 36:42
Fantastic. So it’s, the technology is really there just as an enabler for repetition, getting those those touch points, and sounds like the online platform in particular, that email campaigns, excited about the prospect of developing an app to get Have those touch points and be everywhere people be in everyone’s pockets. So there’s definitely some cool tech there to help embed these these ideas. Otherwise, I think what you’re alluding to certainly it’s been my experiences people turn up to the one day face to face training. I love it, I have a fantastic experience that feeling great, it’s all going in. And then they get back to their desk, they get back to their home, they’re all this whatever it is that family reality kicks in. And that’s how many hundred emails they waiting for them. And get kind of can often then pull out the other side. So get out of

Cam Aggs 37:36
Out, out of sight, out of mind. I mean, we either lived history’s growing up in the 10s of thousands of interactions with our parents, whether it’s the complexity of our lives and the amount of load that we carry, whether it’s the schooling that we had, and then the organizations or the or the environments in which we work. There’s just no shortage of do do do produce, produce produce, and that no shortage of collisions with with painful events. And here we are over one day or seminar or even a, you know, four week, eight week program. And you know, when you think about it, here’s this massive thing of your childhood schooling, our culture, the work that we do, saying, Do do do push, push, push. And then in my case, I’m going Hey, emotionally focus, you know, come back in, talk to yourself with kindness, send and receive breathe in develop the capacities for that. And and that’s not easy. And people will get to where they get to with this. And there’s always this tension, that in my work, you know, that no matter how wonderful the resources are, that there’s no escaping at times the primacy of the relationship. And that’s something that creates a challenge I think for all of us as coaches and as healers depending on our bent with that.

Andrew Ramsden 39:10
Fantastic, thank you. Now probably getting close to a session getting close to time. Sure, you have any other advice for practitioners, therapists, psychologists, coaches, healers, etc in this space, who are looking to step up their game leverage themselves better, whether that’s through group work or through online training, what would be your top tip for them to take away?

Cam Aggs 39:37
Learn how to toggle back into a repair mode with yourself and lots of forgiveness and self tolerance for the imperfections of the journey. For me, the journey has been Hey, maybe that’s my niche, or my much stick or that so no That doesn’t quite work. But that gives me that lead. And then that gave me that opportunity which I can now write a white paper from and develop the credibility piece for, even if that client doesn’t then translate into more work. There’s always a way of extracting some positive and building your business model. And we have different levels of raves around that. And for mine, you know, my thing is a bit boom and bust. You know, I’ll kind of push real hard, and then I’ll kind of lay low and then I’ll push real hard. And, you know, certainly for me, one of the things I have to accept and tolerate is that lack of consistency, that kind of all or nothing thinking that I fall into if it’s not what I want, then I’m packing up and going home, so to speak. So a self reflective awareness around what is your strengths as an entrepreneur, and what are your weaknesses and having tolerance, compassion and Forgiveness around that appreciation for what you’re great at a willingness to toggle back into emotionally focused coping and learning the skills that underpin that capacity. Because it is a rugged thing, this whole entrepreneurial journey. And if you’re lucky enough to really just punch out a cogent business model and hit the bullseye, which some people do, yeah, that’s brilliant. And then, when is enough is enough for that, you know, often these things have no ceiling and so never forgetting the primacy of the relationship. The truth is, when you’re really good at this stuff, you have a kind companion with you in your back pocket, who sees you in your victories and in your struggles. And interestingly, this isn’t we don’t just get to drink the kool aid of that without working out a way ourselves how To deliver that friendship deliver that tolerance be that friend before we can receive that friendship as a very important point and it’s difficult to do when our stress strikes. And this is this is my advice to everyone be kind and generous to themselves on the journey, be willing to toggle and build your ecosystem and stay with it over time. Over time continuing to toggle until you find your place where you deliver your best staff in a way that meets the market and where they’re at. And as Andrew you know, with me, you know what’s really become apparent you know, because I work with lawyers is the market for lawyers don’t want my you know, I wake programs and my you know, I mean, with some exceptions They want small piece, the one hour pieces. So yeah, they’re not going to get all of what I can bring and what I love to do, but they, but they’ll totally connect with this thing here. So it’s about, again, limit setting from the five friendship functions, not tantruming because I don’t want my big thing, meet the client where they’re at, and regulate your emotions accordingly.

Andrew Ramsden 43:24
I love that that really talks to that consistency and persistence to stay on the journey and Tic Tac headed to find that niche that really clicks. Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you so much. And yeah, thank you so much for your time today. That was fantastic. I really enjoyed that. And I’m sure everyone else did as well. Where can we find you online? If we want to find out more?

Cam Aggs 43:53
Yeah, you can email me at cam at the mindful On Twitter is a underscore mindful. And I’m sure we’ve got a Facebook page as well mindful therapy I think it is. So yeah, that’s that’s where you can find me. And also the website mindful delay you has some useful video and some stuff that starts to kind of deep in a sense of of what it is that I talk about and what it is that I do. Always happy to hear from people. For sure.

Andrew Ramsden 44:28
Awesome. Thank you all into all that in the show notes. Yeah. Thank you again, can this has been amazing?

Cam Aggs 44:36
My pleasure. Thank you. Talk to you soon.

Andrew Ramsden 44:42
So there you go, Cameron Aggs. What did I tell you, man, you can see why I was so excited to be able to have this chat with Cameron and bring his wisdom or at least to you. I was plenty more where that came from. So do y’all check him out at the links that will link to from the show notes. Leave us a comment if you have any questions, but can we can apply. Or if you have questions for us we want to see more of on the show would you love and leave us a like, and otherwise we’ll talk to you soon. talk to you about that shirt. All right, see you later.

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