How to write compelling copy that converts | Heal and Transform Podcast with Steve Plummer

by | Feb 11, 2020 | Podcast | 0 comments

Show notes

On this episode of the Heal And Transform Podcast Andrew speaks with Steve Plummer. Steve is a master in the art of marketing strategy and sales language. He has consulted to and written promotions for just about every type of business from start-ups to major national speaker tours and even the corporate world where an ASX listed top 200 company retained his services for more than 18 months. He has devised strategy and written copy that has produced sales in the 10s of millions of dollars. And he will be sharing his tips on copy writing for coaches, therapists and practitioners on the show.

More from Steve Plummer:

  • https://symmetrymarketing.com.au/
  • The 7 Golden Rules that Create Million Dollar Marketing Campaigns (download from the website above)
  • To do a deeper level of training on copywriting go to: https://www.wordstoprofit.com.au/ (Use the code andrewramsden on the checkout page which takes $200USD off the price for listeners, bringing down to $97USD)

Music by David Cutter Music


Episode transcript

Andrew Ramsden 0:28
Today, everyone, and welcome to the show. Very happy to have Steve Palmer on the episode today. Steve is copywriting extraordinary. Have you ever had that blank page syndrome where you’re not sure where to start? You’re not sure how to write compelling or interesting content that brings your customers on the journey. Well, never fear Steve is gonna hook us up today. But he’s also the master of multiple careers, including an illustrious career in journalism, interviewing some of the greats like jack Finnick. So I’m really looking forward to hearing his story and his journey. Because I know there’s gonna be lots of useful lessons in there for how to transition our careers and grow our businesses. So stick around for that. Good I Steve, how are you today?

Steve Plummer 1:14
I enjoy a great song. Thank you. And I’ve been known to break technology in the past and not true to form. This one hasn’t gone Well, technically wise. So I’m a pleasure to be here, finally. And hopefully the bugs are ironed out. But yeah, I’ve been very consistent. I think so. Yeah. Thank you very much. And Hi, everyone. Yeah.

Andrew Ramsden 1:36
We did have some challenges with the live feed. So we’re recording this one offline, but looking forward to it anyway. So thank you for your persistence. Yes. So I did want to ask you about how you got to copywriting because I know you started in the education sector and then went into journalism. So tell us a little bit about your story.

Steve Plummer 1:55
Yeah, it was some it’s been a journey and you know, we all of us are on your own journey. And I think as we as we grow as we mature, as you know, we we find out different things about ourselves. You know, l things changed for us and I was no different. I, you know, I started I started teaching at Columbia State High School, I spent a couple years out in western Queensland and that was really different and rich experiences. wasn’t always fun, but um, you know, there were rich life experiences and help set up for where I am now. So I was in education for 19 or 20 years, I was the head of department for 10 years. I was a classroom teacher for 10 years and I was a deputy principal in two different schools. So I like you said I did rise up through the ranks the The really interesting thing in that journey is that even though I reached a level of success, you know, there was there was probably there was just something burning me that I wanted to do something different on on a surface level, I can say, Well, I need to change because I’ve been in a school of one form or another since I was five years old, you know? So primary school, high school University working school. Yeah, so that’s a surface level thing. But it was just, I guess, something sort of deep in here. I wanted to do other things. And so one of the things I did I, I, I’d learnt freelance journalism, and I ran my own freelance journalism business on the side while I was teaching. So I’d always had always been good at English and love of words and things like that.

Steve Plummer 3:36
The problem with all the challenge with the journalism thing was even though I got relatively good at it, and as you mentioned, interviewing some of Australia’s great fighters, I, I’ve Emmeline, to travel and sports writing, but it just didn’t pay very well and having a mortgage and for kids, it’s pretty hard to jump from something that is very secure. You know, super Innovation sick leave, you know when I left education for instance, I had hundred and something sick days that I hadn’t used, you know, and those sorts of things are are really other sorts of things that keep you stuck, I guess you know, you look at our deeds if I leave it’s risky, you know, look at all the safety things that I’ve got and dumb. Yeah, so that was that was a real challenge on my side but just you mentioned um, Jeff finicum. This this is stuck with me. I was doing an interview for him with him other for a story. One of his his fighters going by the name of Glenn Kelly. He was going to the US to take on Roy Jones Jr. and Roy Jones Jr. If anyone knows boxing is probably in the top 10 pound per pound for pound fighter greatest fighters of all time, just incredibly skilled. And you know, in the interview I said to Jeff, I said, Well, you know, Jeff, the wisdom of the day, a lot of people are saying that Glenn doesn’t have a chance. And he said listen here. opinions are like assholes. Everyone’s got one We’ve been training hard. And in typical Jeff vinik, direct speak, right? And that, that has really stuck with me that quite, you know, because, you know, some people say, well, everyone’s got everyone sorry, opinions are like armpits everyone’s got to. And and I guess as you’re going reason I share that story is that as you’re going through life and you’ll you’re growing and you’re doing different things, it’s easy to, to listen to and get distracted by opinions. You know, and I think it’s, it’s important that we,

Steve Plummer 5:35
we stay true to ourselves,

Steve Plummer 5:38
you know, and I was still the interesting thing about that whole transition out of education was on the surface. I was still I was happy, successful, you know, we still went out and did things kids, we were doing normal kids things was a normal family kind of life. But I guess in here is where we’re really I really felt it and so I’ll try to try to use my writing skills to transition out of thumb out of school via journalism but that just wasn’t going to pay the way you know and then I went to an event just sort of on a whim almost and I the people there were just really opened my eyes because one of the guys in the room they said look I’m a copywriter I you know I work from home I’ve got four kids nine six figures and those 911 that was me I had four kids Gee, been in the hustle and bustle of a of a school then the pace of working from home right so there’s a tick tick got four kids like six figures Hello, and so I guess it’s probably a stalking thing now you’re not getting the trouble for it now but I mean, I pursued him until he became my mentor and helped me transition out of education into you know, into into the copywriting and marketing world and you know, I’ve got a lot of people to thank for their help a lot. Why and I think if, if there’s one really big thing from what’s probably two really big things from my, my story of transition is, is that to be true to, to yourself and what you want to do, don’t necessarily listen to the opinions as well meaning as they might be from other people, but also find a mentor to help you because it is it is tough to transition. You know, on your own, when you’ve got all of these competing things, they’re about all you know, stay safe. You know, the mortgage the kids do, you can’t really step out of your comfort zone, it’s safer to stay where you are all that chatter that goes on in your head, which is that very much an ego try and keep you safe kind of thing, and it doesn’t really serve you, you know, if it’s, if it’s against what you want to be true to yourself and what you want to do. So yeah, that’s some that’s my, my story in a couple of minutes, I guess in terms of that transition, you know, the, the other thing is to like, as, as someone who had been in middle management, I

Steve Plummer 8:00
You know, I had a career path it was a short

Steve Plummer 8:03
you know and all the government superannuation all those sorts of things and promotional path if I was prepared to travel and be a principal somewhere in there probably you know, but that wouldn’t have made me happy You know, so it was about staying true to me it I probably in truth lifted on it I several years too long to do that. But eventually, you know, I broke away and I remember I was also speaking to another Paul Blackburn. Some of you may have heard of him one time at an event and I just caught him just before he went on stage as a poor what advice have you got? This is what one do anyway, how much long service levy we got? And I said all I could remember how much was he said, take a half pay for six months, that’ll give you an opportunity to transition out. Okay, so I wouldn’t did that like three weeks later and I spent six months being paid in education on long service leave in six months, any money, you know, as a as a copywriter. So that was my safety net to help We transition so wasn’t I wasn’t just i didn’t i didn’t dive I transitioned. You know, I think it’s important when you have

Steve Plummer 9:08
responsibilities that you do, you do have a transition rather than,

Steve Plummer 9:14
you know, just jumping, hoping I don’t I know for me anyway, jumping hope doesn’t always work.

Andrew Ramsden 9:21
Yeah, that’s fantastic advice for anyone that’s looking to transition out or anyone that’s just sort of started that journey. Yeah, lots of fantastic tips and things we can take away from that. Thank you for sharing,

Steve Plummer 9:32
you know, if you take anything from the call today be really true to who you are and what you want to achieve because other people’s opinions are always going to be there. And just remember, everyone’s got one or two.

Andrew Ramsden 9:47
I love that. And how do you know Steve, if it’s an opinion that you should listen to or if it’s their opinion, you should ignore including that ego, that part of your brain that sits on your shoulder and tells you you know, this, this feat They’re step away. Stay safe.

Steve Plummer 10:03
Yeah. I wish I had the perfect answer for that. And I wish I had that all figured out. I still wrestle with that every day. In fact, one of the big energy shifts in in 2021 of the things I’ve set myself to do every day is do one thing that makes me uncomfortable. And I think through that discomfort, there is then movement to to kill that voice. That voice is always going to be there. No, no, just Just wait. Just, you know, just you need more preparation. Don’t do that. You just just just stay safe. It’s not quite, you’re not quite ready, you know, you’ll always have that voice in your head. And, you know, I guess it’s a case of catching yourself and that they’re quite there. I read from Walt Whitman, the present is no more uncertain than the future. So you know, what’s the what’s the worst thing that can happen? You know, this, just for example, this doesn’t this call doesn’t go well today and people don’t like it. Well, what’s the worst that can happen? I’ll be distracted by the next Happy Cat video. That comes along with You know, like, it’s that we often we often scare ourselves about the future. And you know, the the acronym that fear is false expectations appearing real is really true. So, I think it’s a, it’s a go manual, recognize when that fear thing comes up, and, and push through anyway and I guess the another little thing I’d like to share is that one of the things about being uncomfortable, I decided this year or my wife and I said, we’ll go one of the things that uncomfortable for me is taking up yoga. And so we’ve done three, four sessions so far, it’s been unreal, you know, there we are, with a whole lot of, I guess, older folk, you know, at the beach and early in the morning doing yoga, but I mean, it’s just been a real game changer in terms of how we feel about ourselves in our body and so forth. So, yeah, I I’m embracing more and more of that discomfort. Because I think there is growth and movement there. And it was like I said, it wasn’t easy when I left teaching because mortgage young kids You know, but you know, if you want to do it anyway, you know, I guess, commit to what you want rather than to the emotional or what you’re feeling at the time, if that makes sense.

Andrew Ramsden 12:10
Yeah, it does. Yeah, thank you for sharing. It’s, it’s a, it’s one of those things I’ve struggled with and juggle with, as well as those little fears in the back of your mind. And that’s one of the things I love about working with this community of coaches, therapists and healers is they’ve really helped me get to the root of where those fears started in childhood, as a way to keep me safe. And then just repeated over time as an adult, where it’s not as productive. It’s not as resourceful it’s not as adaptive. And by clearing that stuff, I’ve found it much easier to not have as much of that fear coming up, but also to be able to sort of just work out when it is just feeling triggered from from that place or where it is. There’s a message there. I need to pay attention to it, listen to it. So I really love that everybody’s got their own way of kind of tackling that Dealing with that and I love to hear that you’re pushing yourself into the uncomfortable the uncomfortable space every day. What was it yesterday? What did you get up to yesterday? That was uncomfortable.

Steve Plummer 13:10
Okay. Yeah, I went to I went to a live half day event.

Steve Plummer 13:16
I ran social media and probably six months ago wouldn’t have done that. Yeah, right. But that was so every day I’m trying to do something that’s uncomfortable. And tomorrow. I’ve got some clients in Brisbane, so I’m going to going to work with them with their client presentation you have in front of their clients that want to be client in the city. So yeah, it’s um, it’s kind of exciting. A little bit more exciting. Yeah, I think I’ll probably like to share one other point with that, um, because I think it it gets back to, to who you are in your story. And if I can just flashback to probably six or seven or eight years ago when I transitioned into into marketing and copywriting I actually close the door, I think emotionally and physically on my 20 year teaching career. And in hindsight, that was a massive mistake because I kind of, I kind of denied a part of me that was that was that was me and my story. And I thought that soon as I was in marketing, the teaching staff just wouldn’t be valuable and, and I think when you consider your people listening, when you consider your story and all the things you’ve done in your life, it’s a very similar thing that all of those things as experiences that we’ve had go to making up who we are, and, you know, so I went on speaking from stage in the marketing business environment, I’d, you know, I, I sort of just sort of squashed that part of me and if I fast forward to just recently a month or so ago, one of my clients so I was just having a chat to them. They said, Oh, yeah, we’re trying to run some training for for our consultants to try and you know, boost their conversions and, and I said, you can come and help you with that and economy, as well as the teacher for 20 years, and I’m creating called isn’t doing stuff like that is some kind of natural law? Can you do that? Dude, I noticed that no company in Britain will do a workshop for a couple of hours. And you know, at the end of that workshop, it was kind of easy for me, right, but at the end of the workshop, they’ll just go wow, kind of because of so much clarity because we, we set out the five trainings that want to have we set out the multimedia things that they wanted to do, or that they could do to, you know, taking people’s different learning styles, etc, etc, etc. That’s for now. Wow, thank you. It’s given us so much clarity. And if I had have, if I hadn’t denied that part of the business of me, I wouldn’t have been able to help us, you know, that fight as much because consider it like this. If, if their clients that I don’t know what their numbers are, they think they’re consultants are closing say one of every five patients, sorry, one of every five presentations I go to and by this training effect and actually close to have every five just because they’ve got more skills and more confidence that’s going to change the business and that’s going to change the business. Probably more than any words I can give them. So I guess my message out of that is is, who you are and what you’ve done. And all of the things that you bring to the table are part of the package. And I love that I think it was Simon Sinek who says people by, by who you are before they buy what you do. And so, you know, if I clicked on the last 10 years in particular, I did lock away a big part of me that was being able to teach and lead groups of people. And and that was a mistake in hindsight.

Andrew Ramsden 16:33
Hmm, yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s really lovely that you were able to bring your breadth of experience and depth of experience from your past and your story and use that in your business to take your business to the next level. So I think that’s a really good message for everyone as well as to to not close the door as you say on that entirely.

Steve Plummer 17:00
I think that when things come easily to us, and again another, just another story from maybe 18 months ago, a client asked me to quickly adjust something and I just went and sent it back then five minutes later I got a response an email saying, Oh, that’s genius. Thank you. That was wonderful knows, I just did a few things with words and, and again, going to the client and just doing doing my teaching stuff with them. It was kind of easy, and it’s, I think it’s easy when things come easily to us. It’s easy to think that everyone can do it. And therefore it’s easy to dismiss your skills and your genius like I would have thrown the laptop out the window where as you were just calmly Martin That’s right. To me, that’s genius, right but it was effortless for you and yet, there’s so I can have have your rap to the things that are really easy for you to do and embrace that genius because, you know, not everyone can do what you can do and because it easy for us. It becomes easy to dismiss that are shocked. It’s nothing everyone can do it and we really do ourselves a disservice. And the other thing too is you often teach most what you need to heal yourself. So I am perfectly that I’m a work in progress as well.

Andrew Ramsden 18:14
I love that good awareness. Yeah, me too. And I think it’s really a fantastic message that we all need to remember. It’s when we’re out there writing content, whether it’s social media content marketing, or we’re putting together packages for people. Yeah, we have to remember they don’t know what we know. It seems really simple and dumb for us. But we have to start at that back right back down at that foundation and build them all the way up, don’t we?

Steve Plummer 18:40
Absolutely. Yeah.

Andrew Ramsden 18:42
And I mean, is that is there a method behind doing that when your copywriting How do you get a sense of where your audience is at and where they need to be? I know you’ve got a four step system I don’t know if that’s tied into this at all.

Steve Plummer 18:54
Yeah, yeah. This Yeah, this might give some, this might give some clarity. I think it’s a I use the acronym WASM w a s m and it’s an overlapping formula, no way of bringing clarity w stands for the hoop as in Who are the people that you are selling to? What language do they use? How do they identify themselves? You know, that’s got to be the starting point. Because people, people when they get up in the morning, they think about themselves in their problems right now and gets up in the morning and thinks about your business. Right? We don’t want to go to the appointment, we don’t want to buy the thing we don’t want to do do stuff that takes us out of our comfort zone generally right? so people don’t get up in the morning thinking about our businesses we do because it’s we’re involved in it but other people don’t. So, you really do have to the double you know the who who is it that you are speaking to, and and every single market has certain types of words or language or language patterns or groups of words that they resonate with and I learned this from actually by your kids always take the stuff from you know, I learned this in when we did our first overseas trip to South Beach in Miami, Florida. We were we’ve had a day at the beach we’re all walking along the street there had had an ice cream and we pulled up and just look the ice cream in front is big bay window of this this novelty t shirt shop and we’re just looking around some we’re finding some more cool but I think who was it was probably eight at the time. He he started laughing and what he liked it man he’s pointing down there down there. And so this eight year old boy’s eyes had focused on a plain white t shirt that had just four words down there. And those four words were boobies make me happy. He thought that was hilarious, right? It was quite it. I didn’t think about the time but afterwards the thought. Isn’t that like business because all of those t shirts right? Lock the market out there and there’s so much noise and so many things that distract us and yet his eight year old boys focused on one word on a plain white t shirt and that he found funny and and that to me was a really strong message about you know connecting to your people What What does what what are the words that stands out for the people you sell to you know for example, if you’re you’re selling to investors, there’s probably no point in talking using words like healing and energy and things like that if you’re selling to you’re selling a healing process, there’s no point talking about investment and profit and things so you need to understand your market deep enough so that you can use you know, just remember boobies make me happy one word in there got the attention of an eight year old boy. No, no market is very much like that. Right? So yeah, you need to understand and that comes from listening to customers, you know in the Facebook groups, online forums, etc, etc, etc. wherever you can. Find out what market the languages sorry find out what language the market is using. I also really love the the term that if you can describe someone’s problem or pain better than then they can themselves, they automatically think you have a solution. You know, so it’s really it’s worth really delving into the market that you have. So that’s the W. And the second thing I stands for it stands for agony or pain or their problem. What is their problem? So why you end up as I said, you’ve got to be able to explain the problem and explain the problem in words and the language that they use, right? That that bonds you. You’re their person when you can use the language they use to describe their own problems. That’s a really big one. So stand for solution. So what what solution do they seek what some What do you promise them? And you know, what’s Nirvana for them? So you’ve got again, no, that’s about them. It’s not about you. It’s about them. So what solution do they seek and the last one m so wi SM M is the mechanism or how you solve the problem. And of course, you’ve also got have lots of proof about that it actually works. You know, I know in in some industries, you know, financial planning, for instance, a lot of the health industries it’s difficult to use testimonials of, you know, I was x&y or you know this happened then this happened you’ve got to be careful with that I understand that but as much proof as you can build in to that argument that w ASM. And you know, even if, after the call today, you just sit down with a blank piece of paper for 10 minutes and just write your own notes and thoughts that will bring some clarity to your business into your messaging.

Andrew Ramsden 23:43
I love that model. That’s fantastic. And I think there’s a particular insight when you talk about finding their language, the key words that light them up and relate to them. And also talking about that agony and pain but sorry, talking about the solution, but it’s it’s got to be a better Then the solution has to be what they are looking for. And I think this is often the challenge that we face is we know what we provide. And we know the value that can have for people. So we know what people actually need, but they may not realize they need it. They just know what they want. So a good way to describe that would be they come in saying I want, you know, a better job or I want a new relationship. I want to be in a relationship, a loving relationship. And they might think that they want a step by step training methodology or how do I fix my CV? Or how do I prepare for job interviews? If it’s if it’s the I want a new job, thing that they desire, but we know that what they actually need is much deeper, there’s something going on in the body or there’s something they are emotionally that they need to clear from their childhood before they’re actually going to show up with the right presence in that interview. So I think, you know, we gotta, we kind of got to sell people what they want and give them what they want. But also then give them what they need and take them on that journey. So it’s I think that’s really insightful to start with a solution that’s all about them and what they want.

Steve Plummer 25:10
I think it’s important to to sell, sell the result, not the thing that really gives you the result, you know. So, for example, you know, I, if I have a sore leg, I want the leg to stop being sore, I don’t really care whether it’s a panadol, or a pressure point technique, if you can say, Look, just hit this pressure point for five seconds, your pains gone away. I mean, like this panadol the pains gone away, I’m sold on I just want the result. So you a lot of your marketing, if it must be about the result that that your solutions give them.

Andrew Ramsden 25:48
And where in the W ASM. Are you injecting the result? Is that in the solution space, or is that more in the mechanism and the proof of the mechanism?

Steve Plummer 25:56
Yeah, it’s it’s definitely the solution and then the mechanism In expands on that, you know, because there’s two I think there’s two parts to that there’s the, the emotional side of the brain, right we need and people buy based on emotion. Okay? That’s the first part of it. So we need to emotionally connect with them and connect with the result they want but then the logical side of the brain kicks in. And we do want to know or yakko do this, this this and this. And accident that’s a really, I’m glad you brought that up. That’s a really interesting point. This is a this is really important when you’re selling something people don’t like walking into a dark room. So a lot of your marketing must be about turning the light on for them. So what actually happens you know, so, appointment one you do this, you know, then you get this and then this and so what are the things that actually happen because this is again, part of that is a confused buyer will do nothing to confuse people do nothing. So make sure you do turn the light on for them. Because if the room is dark for them, and I have rooms that are physically a figurative thing, but if the room is dark for them, they won’t walk into it. So can These people do nothing. And you think about that the last one going to buy something, and you were going to know you did nothing, right? So as much as possible, if we can turn the light on for them and take away that confusion, that usually bumps conversions.

Andrew Ramsden 27:17
So that sounds like you were describing the mechanism is what’s going to happen, here’s what you actually need and how that’s gonna play out.

Steve Plummer 27:23
Yes, yep. And that’s the logical logical side of the brain. Yeah, that’s the logical side of the brain, you know, and I will need to know that, you know, you’re not going to make me stretch my ankle behind my ear, that’s gonna hurt me kind of thing, you know, hold on a piece of that, you know, so you’ve got to tell them what’s going to happen. So it’s easy for them, it’s safe for them. And that confusion is gone.

Andrew Ramsden 27:45
The solution is really results. This is the outcome. This is the prize at the end of the rainbow. And then the mechanism is, is telling them what’s going to be involved and what that actually looks like. And that could be very different to anything that they’ve ever experienced before. So you’ve got to bring them on that journey. Right? Yeah. Yeah. From from where it is and what they think they want through to Hey, this is actually going to do it for you.

Steve Plummer 28:08
Yeah, another another word of caution there too is a lot of that is easily dismissed without Everyone knows that everyone knows that’s what happens. I’m not I don’t know, if I’m, if I’m going to an energy healer for the first time, for instance, do I have to take all my clothes off? will this take four hours? Will it take one hour? Yeah, will I will I feel all hot and flushed? Will I you know, like, I don’t know. Because you’re in that space all the time. And you talk to people in that space all the time? Yeah, what actually happens to me, you know, and if I don’t know if that room is dark, I’m really reluctant to step into it, right? Whereas if you say, Now look, all you actually have to do is lie there. You know, work on you for about 45 minutes, you might feel, you know, a little bit of tingling, maybe a few hot sensations, but you know, generally you’ll be able to get up and walk away and go on with your day. It’s a really easy, simple, safe, healing process. It’s my mind like like the fear of leaving a career My mind is going well this might be scary this might be hard or gee I don’t want to do any of that sort of stuff What if I have to do this what I’ve been through that you know some folks said they had no didn’t work and this happened to them and so all of a sudden go you know l mind state of our mind is going to keep safe so within our within our marketing we are fighting that that ego part of the brain that wants to keep us safe and keeping us safe in this instance is not spending money not going to the appointment you know, it’s it’s easy often and we we’ve all done this it’s easier to stay with the pain that you know rather than go to a solution that you don’t know hey my 20 year careers some a little bit like that. So you know, the pain we know is often easier than the solution we actually want you know so yeah, whatever you can do turn the light on people.

Andrew Ramsden 29:56
I love that so it’s about safety. st confuse people do nothing. But also scared people do nothing. So, yeah.

Steve Plummer 30:06
Real quick.

Andrew Ramsden 30:08
That’s true. So how do we provide that safety? Is it just about the information? So there’s clarity or are there other things we can be doing to give them that safety that it’s okay.

Steve Plummer 30:18
Yeah. So it, embrace it a little while ago, people by who you are before they buy what you do. So, how you show up, you know, and, and that it again gets back to embracing that whole story of you. You know, I, and I’ll go back to my story. Um, I didn’t realize, you know, when I said I was a head of faculty deputy principal, I thought because it was in different industry, that was just something left behind. That actually gave me a lot of credibility. And because I dealt with budgets, I could lead and manage large groups of people, I could organize things I could get results, etc, etc, etc. And, but I ignored that I pushed that away. And that was, as I said, in hindsight, Sign on my journey that was a mistake. So part of that is who you are how you show up. But it’s also then how you can unpack what you do. So it’s easy and and in the language that they use, so it’s safe and easy for them to say yes. And it’s, you know, there’s, I guess, hundred, there’s no, there’s no one thing and I love the saying, you know, no one thing brings down an aeroplane the reverse is also true. No one thing makes it fly. So yes, it’s testimonials. It’s proof. It’s turned the light on for them, it’s talking to them in their language, it’s having a real really clear in your mind about who you’re reaching and what they want, etc, etc. So, all those things as you can see, it’s multi layered, in terms of, you know, how you get out there and rich people. It’s one of the, I think the biggest mistakes people make is they underestimate the difficulty of the task of selling. You know, we’re not just a web page, I’ll just do a post. I mean work. I listened to this guy on on this web on this Facebook Live and that stuff didn’t work, watch.

Steve Plummer 32:02
That stuff didn’t work. I won’t do that.

Andrew Ramsden 32:05
It’s not easy is it? Is there is there a secret to that to getting it to actually convert into sales? I mean, your typical website doesn’t really do a lot your typical content marketing posts, it’s good to get your energy out there and be seen and be visible so that people can get to know you and you are your brand, obviously. But what’s the secret to them having that convert into business?

Steve Plummer 32:32
convert Well, again, that’s a multi layered question. One thing I would I would say is that

Steve Plummer 32:41
be okay with failure?

Steve Plummer 32:43
You know, it’s it’s really hard. I think what’s even harder these days because you see on on social media, particularly you see people at the beach out to dinner and all of these kind of envy things. And what I must have got there because their business is really great and they must works done. And so again, your mind tells you this story. But what they don’t tell you is all of the failures that they had a couple of examples, one of the biggest online guys, I am on one of his email lists, and he sent a picture of his website from 2015. And he said, This made me cringe. So what did we do? We fixed it, then we fixed the fixes, then we fixed the fixes that fix the fixes, and now we’re fixing it some more. So, you know, everything is tested, measure, know that you’re going to have your failures. So the other thing I was reading someone’s blog, like last year, and they said, you know, they love the story of the big company that hired one of the best copywriters in the in the world for you know, big campaigns and every one of them bombed. You know, this is this is marketing, it’s dealing with people’s emotions and understand through that marketing is very situational. What worked at one point suddenly may not work the next day and there’s often no reason behind it. So, you know, I know that probably doesn’t bring a lot of comfort but that’s the reality. You know, you have to test and measure some of the stuff you do will work really well and then you think you’ve got it nailed and then you do something again like I was on just do what I did then and it doesn’t work you go, what the hell happened? You’ll go back and learn from what the differences were. I actually learned that really early on in my career the my writing career the the very first paid job I did, it went really well and the client asked me to do it again. And often I’ve got this nailed, right and I didn’t put as much effort in I didn’t research as hard. And it was terrible. And that was a that was that that fight was an awful punch in the guts but these are learnt from it. You know, if you if you aren’t present and you don’t put the energy and I’m by energy, I guess I’m meaning. You know, you’re the energy of wanting to help people the energy of, of the, the intent behind the words which can’t be needy or desperate, by the way but the energy behind the words if you if you try and skim over that country stuff it bites you on the bum pretty much

Andrew Ramsden 35:03
Yeah, I’d look i’d love to hear more about that we were talking about this before the interview this idea of the energy that you sit in when you’re writing the content really comes through and that’s such an important part of the process. Tell us some more about that. Now do you think about that and how do you make sure you’re in the right energy when you’re writing

Steve Plummer 35:21
again I wish I had this now the hundred percent of the time

Steve Plummer 35:25
Look it’s if you if you are anxious if you are fearful if you are needy, if you know if I just got to get this client and a guy things are gonna be really bad if I don’t get this client. If you are all of those you know and if you

Steve Plummer 35:39
Dr. Hawkins in his book power versus force actually

Steve Plummer 35:43
outlines the the frequency of the different on the vibration of the different emotions that we have. And obviously they are then the negative ones like like fear, envy, etc. really resonate really low, and the other ones like joy and love etc. resonate really high. And if you are in that space yourself of I’ve guess I’m having some really low vibrations when you go to right that comes through, you know, people, people are very perceptive in terms of energy. We don’t realize it, but people are very perceptive. And one of my mentors, Dan Kennedy has this, this great phrase about poor writing. And it goes something like this. He says, people when they read coffee, or words that make them feel vaguely unconsciously uncomfortable, will turn away immediately. And I mean, vaguely, unconsciously, uncomfortable. We don’t know why. And you think about all the web pages, you’ve read all the posts of saying, you know, if something made you vaguely unconsciously uncomfortable, you turn away pretty quickly. And so part of our job is in that writing state that we’re in is to make sure our level of our bond We feel like our frequency is as high as we possibly can. And there are a number of things you can do to do that. You know that the music you listen to, for instance, when you’re writing, Mozart piano concert, Piano Concerto 21, that puts your brain in alpha brain state, you know, that can help you in the flow and just have it playing in the backgrounds. Google high frequency music, you know, that can help you as well. One of the big marketers from the US, Perry Marshall, he said before he, before he writes, copy, he does heavy, he plays a really loud heavy metal music because it gets them pumped and excited, and I couldn’t think of anything worse. You know, so work out, work out. Well. Don’t make me angry, right? And I’m going to work out what works for you. You know, it’s important to work out what works for you because other people have said, oh, look what I tried that Mozart stuff and I just got annoyed by it and that’s okay. You know, different people respond to different things. So try different things, test and measure and see what works for you but being in that that Really nice state when you go to write is really, really important. Sometimes it’s really challenging Now if you’ve got a tight deadline, and like I said, I wish I had that master better, but on a work in progress like everyone else, so

Andrew Ramsden 38:12
yeah, no worries at all. Well, that’s really fantastic advice. And again, this is one of the areas that coaches therapists and healers are really good at. So I’m sure they’d be able to reciprocate as well. Maybe it’s a question I can hit someone up with on a future podcast. And we’ll get their side of how you getting that right, vibrational and energy state as well. So that’s that’s a great

Steve Plummer 38:33
question, isn’t it? And and that’s, that’s actually a really good question, Andrew, because that’s not just a writing question. Right. That’s an every time you are doing something that is important to yourself and to others. So yeah, that’s a really good,

Andrew Ramsden 38:45
yeah, love that. Very important life skills, especially in business. So we’re getting close to time for today, but I know there’s a few special offers that you’ve made available to our listeners, which is really fantastic. A couple of things coming up that I’d love to talk about. I know you’ve got a book launch coming up and some workshops. And there’s also an online writing writing program. Yeah. So tell us all about it. Okay, so

Steve Plummer 39:10
really quickly. I’m very excited. My book is about to be launched. You can see I’m just flicking through. This is a print copy. I’m just doing the last edits. It won’t be that big as my son’s school textbook sign, it won’t be that big of a normal book size. Right? That’s just a proof from the printer. So I keep an eye out for that when that launches, when I get it done, which hopefully will be in the next couple of weeks. Yeah, and one of what I guess it’s a lifelong ambition for me as well. I’ve always wanted to be an author and that’s becoming really close so yeah, really, really excited by that. So yeah, keep

Andrew Ramsden 39:42
an eye on it. Yeah, they’d be a physical book launch that we can come along to

Steve Plummer 39:47
there will be there will be Stay tuned for the details will be on the Sunshine Coast here somewhere so yeah, that I’d love to see you there that’s great. Happy to Sonic some etc, etc. So yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Ramsden 40:00
I know you’ve got some workshops coming up. Did you want to talk about those?

Steve Plummer 40:04
I haven’t got any dates for those at the moment. So we will write those for now. That’s all right. Yep.

Andrew Ramsden 40:08
Yeah, too easy. And I know you’ve got the seven golden rules as well, that’s a gift that people can access. Do you want to tell us about that?

Steve Plummer 40:16
Yeah, sure. So it’s a one page checklist. It’s the seven golden rules that have that create million dollar marketing campaigns. And I guess it’s a collection of what I’ve learned over the last 10 or 12 years. Understand, it’s not a magic pill. Okay, it’s a checklist to help get you in, in when you’re doing a marketing campaign or a series of emails or whatever it might be, have a look at some things, the big rocks, the fundamentals that make it work, you know, and just a glance at that every morning for the next 21 days, will also change your mind. So you can get that at my website. That’s www dot simmetry marketing.com.edu that’s s y double METRY marketing symmetry. Marketing. That’s my website. Have you gonna put that anywhere? Andrew

Andrew Ramsden 41:03
will Yeah, we’ll put the link up and I’m gonna go and download it now and print it out. I love that it’s a one pager because I can stick it on my wall.

Steve Plummer 41:09
You came. That’s page two, I think after the copyright stuff. Yes. So, yeah.

Andrew Ramsden 41:15
Yes, I know. You’ve also got an online copywriting training and you’ve done a fantastic deal for us.

Steve Plummer 41:23
Yeah, so you’re going to tell you about that one.

Andrew Ramsden 41:25
Yeah, please. Both.

Steve Plummer 41:28
If you want some free information, obviously, the checklist is there. If you want to go a little bit deeper and invest in yourself a bit more. I do have an online course. So it’s obviously it’s some work from home at your own pace in your own time. It covers three big areas, the art of storytelling. You know, I touched on that a little bit today in telling my story and then telling the story when we were in Miami, you know, so strategic stories are really important. And just as a quick aside, they were really good mechanism to use as proof of work. You Do you know your your particular issues sound a lot like john who was in here last week he had done it Oh damn, we actually fixed you know, Robin fixing really quickly Yeah. So if you can tell strategic stories and know why you’re telling them you know that can can help you with your conversion. So that’s the first thing. The second thing that it covers is how to grab people’s attention. You know in your headline, you know, if you don’t get them at Hello, you don’t get them right so then I get to see them the message so there is a real art to to writing your headlines and that gives you some really cool information about how to do that. And the third thing is how to wordsmith your your way to profit. In other words, there are certain things and certain certain techniques that when you are writing you need to be really aware of I’ll just give you one tip for example, when you’re writing, right, when you’re editing edit, writing is a creative right side of the brain activity. Editing is an analytical left side of the brain activity. Don’t confuse the two. And those people who are perfectionist and really I know and height seems a little squiggles on your word, Doc I hate that advice but it’s really good just write for flow, get it all out and then go back and edit. So there are lots of tips in there in those seven technical writing tips that I that I give you in that course as well plus there are four other bonuses or a copywriting critique checklist to go back and have a look at all the things that you may have missed. There’s a writing preparation guide which is really important the questions that you need to answer for your market and then there are some cheat sheets as well. things on headlines, how to close how to build an offer, etc etc. So it’s it’s jam packed with value. It does retail at 297 USD However, for your people Andrew, coupon code this morning, it takes it down to 97 USD. And the coupon code Make sure you use the coupon code is surprise surprise. Andrew Ramsden Okay, so all lowercase I in the hurry w ra m SDN. So Andrew Ramsden is the coupon code or lowercase so make sure you put that in otherwise it will it will I’m obviously charging the full amount which we don’t want. So yeah, gift from me to you. Andrew Ramsden is the coupon code.

Andrew Ramsden 44:07
I love that. Thank you, Steve. And what a wonderful interview this morning. It’s just been fantastic. I’ve really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for being so generous.

Steve Plummer 44:16
Thank you. Pleasure to share some stuff and hopefully my story as well some tips as has helped you in some way out there. You know, 21 is listening. So run remember, we are all on that journey. I wish I had it figured out. So actually one other thing I’d love to, to leave you with is some I love the saying that the Guru’s are always right, except when they’re wrong. So just trusting yourself as much as you trust in the information that you get out there. If you’re trusting yourself and apply the information you get out there. You know, I think that stands you in good stead moving forward, especially overcoming those fears that we all have in our life.

Andrew Ramsden 44:53
Amazing, great advice to finish on. Thank you, Steve.

Unknown Speaker 44:56
Thanks, Andrew. been a pleasure.

Andrew Ramsden 44:58
Talk to you again soon. So there we have it, Steve plumber, and wasn’t he incredibly generous diving right down into the tactical and the practical that we can apply. I know there’s a lot there that I’m really looking forward to apply in my copywriting. So we’ll put some links to Steve’s websites, cemetery marketing in the in the description below the video and in the show notes. And otherwise, just let me know what you think. Drop us a comment. And if you’ve got any questions for Steve do the same reach out and we can work through those. Otherwise, I look forward to the next one. Take care May all your copywriting have wonderful energy and vibration and really connect with your audience and convert into ways that you can help serve them. Until next time, have fun guys.

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